Old Year's quotes

Here are some of the fun quotes we received just this past month or so. Feel free to e-mail me your favorite quotes from restaurant staff and cleaning companies. 

1) Stated from a Chicago area restaurant manager: "I don't understand why you need to go on the roof tonight. I have been the manager here for the past 12 years and no one else ever has had to go to the roof to clean the hood system. I see no reason for your wanting to go to my roof to clean the system" (The exhaust fans are all on the roof, there is an inside access with no way to get to the roof on the outside, there is no access below the fans, and last but not least- the fans appeared to have never been cleaned when we did finally talk her into letting us on the roof)

2) Stated from a East Texas manager: "Our regional manager sent the last cleaning company home when the 2 man crew arrived to clean my exhaust system with a small bucket, a pair of rags and 2 cans of easy off oven cleaner, it was lucky he was here to meet them this time"  (This is a steakhouse with multiple extensive exhaust systems, they were in pretty rough shape)

3) State from a MN area grocery store manager when we were looking at the deli fan on the roof the day after cleaning. It had snowed a few days before but there was not a single footprint on the roof: "They were just here last night and the checklist states they did the fans and the roof looked fine with no issues " I had my own personal favorite response "Maybe they practiced levitation and floated the 100' from the roof access to the fan. Of course since the fans are still dirty, the hinges and wiring are all broken, and there is grease sprayed all over the snow, it appears that they just turned the fan on and did the old spray and pray. They sprayed up the stack from their pressure washer with the fan going and prayed that the grease came off.  Tis the season for that ya know" (The entire system except the bottom 2' of duct was still completely loaded with grease. The hood sticker and report were from that morning. It looks like their prayers were not answered)

4) From a cleaning company who were trying to explain why the grease exhaust system they just did was only cleaned up about 6" from the hood. "Our guys are smaller with short arms so all of the areas above what they cleaned are inaccessible with this crew as they could not reach it.  Those areas are not part of this bid for cleaning to NFPA96 since it is all inaccessible to that crew and you were notified on the hood sticker when the inaccessible area exists box was checked off"  My comment: Ya gotta be kidding me!! Of course, shorter guys can't reach anything. Go tell that to my staff!! All of them can reach all areas no matter what their height!!  Also, maybe they could not reach behind the fan blades and down the stacks from the roof either(That section was also dirty)  Maybe use some new technologies (like ladders)? Maybe bid the job to clean properly in the first place!!  This all sounds pretty basic to me. 

5) Restaurant manager in KC area after looking up the stack at the previous nights exhaust cleaning and finding the system was only cleaned up 3" from the hood: "Looks good to me. I have been working in KC for 20 years. All of the cleaning companies I have used leave grease up in the system. Is is supposed to be all clean when done? The hood is shiny!!"  Folks, I have no comment for that one!!  

After hour mall & building access problems

There has been a string of National and Regional directives for Malls and other buildings banning all roof access before 7am in the morning. Some are city directives in mixed use buildings due to noise ordinances.  One large ownership group is only allowing access between the hours of 7am and 3pm. This makes it almost impossible for quality cleaning companies to do the proper job without closing the restaurants as many systems require many hours to complete these the cleanings properly. This leads to a HUGE fire danger as the restaurants are forced to used cleaning companies that are willing to work within these hours by NOT CLEANING most of the systems. We all need to work together to keep the mall operations people informed about what we do, how much danger their directives are presenting to the tenants and property, and that the directives for these after hour accesses are poor decisions for more reasons than I can count. They also will loose tenants and sales if they force these restaurants to close for proper cleanings during normal business hours. In addition to this, how do shopping customers feel when they visit the mall and their favorite place is closed down for cleaning? They will start shopping somewhere else. How will shoppers feel when they have to evacuate the mall due to a grease fire? How will these security measures be explained if someone dies or is injured in a grease fire because their onerous measures lead to inferior cleanings as they forced their tenants into no other choice. How will they explain injuries from crews having to ignore safety measures due to these time constraints? How will they explain damages from crews having to ignore proper setups due to these time constraints? We must all act now and work together to make sure everyone understands how ignorant these policies are. It is not the landlords fault, they often only see part of the picture. The only way to combat this ignorance is to educate the security and operations people working for these landlords on all of the reasons we need proper and reasonable after hour access.  Also, this means we need to take full responsibility for training our own crews on safety, security, and the protection of both our customers and the landlords property while on the job. 

Contractor Excuse Letter on duct leaking

A customer received the following letter and I almost fell out of my chair laughing until I realized these guys were serious. My on staff welders even read it in complete disbelief. The letter was basically excuses on why all of the grease(and water during the cleaning) pouring out of the welded seams from a grease exhaust vent system they had installed was not their fault.  It also was a letter to the customer on why they would not repair it to meet NFPA96 standards. Remember that this duct is also leaking grease into the ceiling areas BETWEEN the cleanings. This contractor recommended not cleaning it with pressure washers and using Steaming, Foaming, Low pressure methods(Garden hose I suspect), etc. Foaming only works for companies that lack proper equipment to correctly clean the job with pressure washing equipment specifically designed for grease exhaust cleaning. The foam is simply a different way to apply chemical and there are better way. We found it takes almost twice as long using foam as it does using higher quality engineered equipment. Plus, the foam was almost completely ineffective on thicker greases. It only works well on thinner grease where you really don't need it anyways. This contractor obviously has no idea that welding ductwork so it does not leak is the standard in the rest of the country and is the standard for his area also. They have had major issues with passing leaktests for other restaurants and even were the ones that used the JB weld we showed in an earlier blog.  My response is after the letter. 

"December 3, 2008

********* *********

******** *******

****** ******** ******

*********, ** *****

RE: ******* ********

Sub: High Pressure Grease Duct Cleaning

Dear ********,

In reference to the issue of water leaking from the grease ducts at the cooking hoods during the cleaning process we have made site visits and and performed research on the cause of this problem and have the following comments.

We believe the problem is directly related to the use of very high pressure water (1500 P.S.I.) by your hood cleaning vendor to remove grease from the duct work. While this method is very effective in removing the grease, it is also exceeding the design specifications for the ductwork and causing damager to the ceramic fire wrap, gaskets on the access doors and surrounding finishes. 

The accepted testing method in Washington State for the welds on grease ducts, per the Washington Building Code 51-52-0506, is a light test performed by the Mechanical Inspector or an independent special inspector, depending on the JHA (Jurisdiction Having Authority). The light test is conducted by using a 100 watt light passed behind the welds to confirm their integrity. 

A national standard for grease duct testing as listed by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency section #96) is for the welds to withstand a 0.10" water column for 20 minutes to assure a hermetic seal. The pressure used during this test is the equivalent of less than one pound per square inch (similar to 1/8" of standing water over the welds)

During our investigation ******* has confirmed that the exhaust ductwork on this project was installed per specifications and inspected to code. We believe that the water leaking issues are directly related to your vendor using a high pressure method that exceeds all applicable testing specifications. There are two apparent coursed of action to resolve this issue.

    1. Change the method of cleaning to a lower pressure water last, steam, or foam method that meets the design parameters of the installed ductwork.

   2. Retrofit the existing ductwork to meet the demands of high pressure  cleaning method now in use. There will be cost associated with this option (fire wrap removal, shut down, access hatch replacement, pressure testing, welding, and re-installations of fire wrap).

Please contact ******** directly with your response or questions,

Sincerely,

******** ********, Project Manager

AND MY RESPONSE:

"Hi *******,

My professional opinion is that a proper weld should not ever leak grease or other liquids. Ductwork welds that we have water pressure tested over the past 15 years have never leaked after passing inspection. I have talked to many welders about this situation. They ALL agree that any proper welds on 16 gauge black iron ductwork should easily withstand high pressure water in excess of 3000 PSI, even at point blank range. One must remember that the high pressures used are very similar to what is used on car wash and other pressure washing projects and should have no effect on proper welds or the 16 gauge ductwork. We know that the light test does not work as many systems that have passed the light test have failed the water leak test(over 90% failure rate on over 200 leak tests in the past 2 years). The same certified welders(including many working for ******* and ********) informed me that the only way the welds leak liquid on a 16 gauge black iron duct is if they were not done properly in the first place. Leaks on improperly welded ductwork can easily be hidden by slag and construction debris, but grease will find them over time. Proper welds on grease ducts never leak unless they rust our which rarely happens in black iron duct unless there is a permanent hood wash system in place and the systems are very only. Even then, the grease buildup protects the ductwork and welds. I have 2 welders on my staff that worked for many years at ****** ******(a ***** *****) that have also stated that proper welds never leak and the General Manager of the Blower Balancing and Repair Division, ****** ***** stated that the "High Pressure" is a huge misconception and the high pressures will not hurt the ductwork or welds in any way. Remember that the nozzles are 1500 psi at the tip. With 15 degree to 25 degree nozzles that are used, pressure drops dramatically only a few inches from the tip. High pressure washing has been an industry standard for over 30 years. The University of MN, Chipotle Mexican Grills, Sarku of Japan, the City of Maple Grove-MN, and others have found the light tests do not work and all require high pressure water leak tests at 1500 PSI on all their new grease exhaust systems. I  can pass my hand in front of a 1500 psi pressure washer nozzle with ease at a distance of 6" which is where the spray is normally at for most water leak tests. NFPA96 requires the duct work to be seamless and liquid tight. My professional opinion is that 1500 PSI(or even 3000 PSI) is not having any effect on the integrity of the welds and never will have an effect. The welds are leaking grease and water and need to be repaired asap. The only thing the high pressure would damage is the dust, slap, and construction debris covering the holes in the welds. Where is this section the letter refers to in NFPA96? It does not exist that I know of and I am extremely familiar with NFPA96 and do many seminars nationwide on it. What is actually mentions in NFPA96 2008 Edition, Chapter 7.5.2.1: "Shall have a liquid tight continuous weld...". I think he was referring to the Building Code Section on testing systems  with air pressure or something similar. The access plate issue is mute since they are usually off when the system is getting cleaned with high pressure, plus the gaskets are replaceable items. Was the Ductmate Ultimate Door used here or the Ductmate Sandwich doors(or something else)? The Sandwich doors are NOT UL listed for grease ducts. Only the Ultimate Door or the Flamegard Doors are. The only way the "high water pressure" is damaging the ceramic fire wrap is if the ductwork fails the NFPA96 standards and leaks into the wrap.

Don Pfleiderer, CESI, CESC"